To link or not to link?

Zaffar from London left a comment after reading the Times Online report on the leaking of the BNP membership list. He wrote: 'this is a joke read this article typed in google got the list in seconds".

You can quibble with his punctuation, but not with his logic. Anyone could Google the phrase "BNP members" and get the list too, although the original weblog on which it was posted has been taken down.

But The Times decided not to link to the list, even though we often do link to material without taking that as some kind of endorsement.

There were various reasons for the decision, most of them expressed in other comments on our various online reports. Firstly, BNP members have as much right to privacy as anyone else. Secondly, last time we checked it was still a free country: there is no law against membership of the BNP.

It is also a particularly emotive subject. One reader bragged of having spent his evening making prank phones calls to those on the list. A couple of others said that they had found friends or neighbours on it - and had already taken the offenders off their own Chrismas card lists.

Both on Times Online and and on various blogs, BNP members expressed their concern at the leaking of the list. They are not necessarily police officers - a job from which BNP members are explicitly banned. One, for example, runs a computer shop and is frightened that he will be put out of business.

The list is out there now, even if a Google search no longer throws it up. The anti-fascist campaigners and phone-prankers are having a field day. We don't need to help them.

Comments

[Alex]

Peter

I have no problem with secret ballots or elections. As I say in my original comment, I bekieve there is a huge difference between simply voting and participating or actively supporting the development of policy by being a party member. If a person feels that strongly why hide?

J.R.Bell

You have not really proved me wrong. If there is a vast number of people willing to shun and rebuke you for your beliefs if they find out that you have been hiding them then instead of hiding them maybe you should have been more vocal and eloquent in convincing them that your arguments are worth listening to. If that is not possible, maybe you should accept that the majority are right after all and that you are wrong

[ed]

When is someone going to publish the Labour party membership list? I'd like to take those people off my Christmas list

[Jeff]

One thing: RedWatch.

Their right to privacy would be all fair and well if they had not resorted to the same tactics to anti-BNP demonstrators, communist party members, and ethnic minority sympathisers (along with those who they feel are not "in their place").

It's about time they should feel how it is to be persecuted and victimised. Beautiful irony.

[Thomas]

Darby admitted that the party is relying on the Human Rights Act, based upon EU legislation, which the BNP opposes, to try to protect the privacy of its members. Isn't that rich?

[David THomson]

Doctors,teachers,engineers,scientists,retired artists, policemen, DJ's, electricians. So much for the "nazi skinhead" claim by the far left. In fact they are a cross-section of British society.This is likely to increase BNP support at the next election.

[Jonah]

What a pious load of rubbish that article is. The BNP believes in a myth of white superiority, its lies are intent on spreading race hatred and its leader is a holocaust denier. That it is legal does not make it anything other than extremely odious. For all their attempts to gloss over their nastier aspects, the party remains stuffed with violent fascists. That their membership is so keen to remain hidden speaks volumes.

[raymond]

If the bnp are offended they should try harder to stop some of their members posting names and addresses of their oppenents on Redwatch.

[Alex]

Fairfax

Yes I would.

[eddie]

IS IT ILLEGAL TO BE A COMMUNIST????

IF YES, THEN WHY.
BUT NOT ILLEGAL TO BELONG TO THE BNP.

[MArc]

There ya go

[J.R.BELL]

I must say, as one of those who has been outed in this cowardly fashion,that Alex (above) has it all quite wrong.Would that it were possible for us all openly to proclaim our beliefs and our membership of the only political Party dedicated to saving our country as a recognisable human society.Unfortunately, it is not possible as this present tremendous hoo-haa amply demonstrates. Such is the state of political repression in Britain that people actually lose their jobs, find that their promotion prospects have been blighted,and many other detriments - and for what? - for trying to preserve the Britain which our parents and grandparents thought that they were fighting for in two world wars!

As it happens,I know that the BNP will emerge stronger from this episode, as it has done from previous similar outrages because its people are made of stern stuff. The real pain, the real harm,will be inflicted on those who are not members of the BNP but who belong to their families - the families who now find that the breadwinner has lost his or her job.That is the stinking mess which Labour has made of the country which was once the strong shield of liberty!

[Charan]

Why do people say the BNP list has disappeared from websites? I just did one search on google using the words "BNP leaked members list" and there it was, on a website with a name that's descriptive of what it is. Not even a Chinese or Bulgarian website but dot co dot uk. Should it have been leaked? At this stage it's an academic question.

[Keith]

While in the Armed Force your not allow to join a Party be it Labour or the BNP. For 23 years I keep that rule . I join a party for a number of years but did not get anything from it so I left .
BNP is a party with a bad name but if we do not stop and look at what is happening with company's moving overseas etc . More people moving to the UK with nothing to offer then BNP will win more votes.

[Richard]

Tactics like publishing the membership list are designed to scare off the average citizen from joining, and attract the more violent extremist people who are not attracted to the BNP.
The left can then say that their propaganda that all BNP members are Nazi skinhead thugs has been right all along. A bit like the IRA used to target Catholics in the police force and army in Ulster: scare them off and their propaganda that the UDA and police were sectarian because they are totally protestant.
It's that Marxist logic again!

[Col]

I had my bedroom window smashed by a hoard of BNP supporters last year. The fact that me and my family are white and British leads me to suspect that they are not exactly the clever party. Should I be tempted to pop round and have a word about it with some of the "people" on the list who live locally?

[Claire]

So let me get this straight, the same Nick Griffin who promised to ban the Human Rights Act if elected is now threatening to use against people who abused his human rights! Absolutely priceless! And yes, Google Cache is your friend if things start disappearing or try the Way Back Machine....

[Peter]

Alex, your comments suggest you don't agree with a secret ballot at elections then.

[Fairfax]

Alex:"The electorate has a right to know who so strongly supports parties and policies."

Presumably you would therefore impose the requirement that all political parties publish their membership lists, including contact details.

[Richard]

Some of the people's comments on here disgust me. Publishing this list is tantamount to making the jews wear a yellow star of david between 1933-1945. My forefathers fought for freedom of speech and choice and it sickens me to see the liberal left acting more like Nazi's than the BNP ever could.

[John O'Farrell]

It's becoming apparent the persecutors of BNP members have become what they claim they detest. The BNP (like them or hate them) are a LEGITIMATE political party and have as much right to their views as anyone. To say they are all racists is ignorant in the extreme. If the Labour government had done it's job then maybe the BNP would not enjoy the support it has. The facists on the extreme left who are now emailing and phoning those on the list are much of the reason why this country is losing it's direction. They should be very ashamed of their actions.

[Chris]

I am disappointed, I thought there would be more in my area. I am one of the other 790,000 people who voted for the BNP in the last European elections, I'm just not the political party joining type. I might join now though if that's what the Unbritish elements in our once pleasant society wouldn't want me to do.

[aabi]

The leaked BNP members list exposes white Christian racists who would never elect a non-white prime minister; who killed Princess Diana for having a Muslim boyfriend. In order to protect the racists, the BNP list disappeared from the Internet within hours. Anti-Muslims disinformation is available from thousands of websites for years. This only proves, beyond any reasonable doubt, that webpage ban laws only work to protect the white Christian and Jewish American and European racist cowards who are not prepared to be named and shamed. The print/air media, Tory politicians and the law enforcement agencies help protect the BNP cowards.

[Miker G]

Why are the BNP complaining about an "invasion of privacy" when they've sponsored the nazi-slogan-daubed "redwatch" site - which publishes names and addresses of so-called "Marxists" - for years?

[Dave]

The alarm isnt that people are ashamed of BNP memebership, rather its a reflection of the persecution visited upon members of a democratic party in this great democracy of ours. It seems that you can vote for who you like as long as we (the three party cartel and the eussr) approve.

At least it may be another nail in the coffin of the ID card scheme. Thats assuming the eu allows us to drop it of course.

[Frank Upton]

Racist they are, but to describe the BNP as 'fascist' shows a great ignorance of history.

[James]

THE BNP MEMBERSHIP LIST has been removed from web-sites such as 'wikileaks' that displayed it up until last night. But they have moved it to four overseas sites which are outside UK jurisdiction, I clicked on their Sweden2 link and there it was. It's also on web-sites from Australia to Slovakia, I was able to find the list on half a dozen servers with ease.

The fact is BNP members have been outed. It's too late for legal action Mr Griffin.

The only surprise is that anyone daft enough to give their professional details -armed forces, police, teacher, etc deserves the glass ceiling that will be placed on future career prospects.

James

[edith crowther]

The Race Relations Act 2000 merely extends the application of the 1976 Race Relations Act - the latter remains the basic text of the law. Section 1(1) defines discrimination as a person treating ANY other person less favourably ON RACIAL GROUNDS, than he treats or would treat other persons. Section 3 defines "racial group" as "a group of persons defined by reference to colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins ...". EG British, National, White, etc. The police need to check whether they are breaking the basic law by excluding BNP members. Certainly it does not seem to me that they would be breaking it by including them, so long as they continued to include members of other racial groups. The proportion clauses are separated by an OR, and only relate to where a condition of entry is imposed which MAKES the proportion of those who can comply "considerably smaller". This clause would kick in if most white British were members of the BNP and thus less of them could comply than those from other racial groups. So it is not germane - yet. It is not germane in relation to other racial groups, because no conditions are imposed on them.

By the way, I do consider a lot of the comments on public internet fora breach the 1976 Act by the way they treat BNP members; internet fora would seem to come under the "Services" section of the Act (s.20).

[Petrus cum Barba]

I suspect that if present, and former, card carrying members of the Communist Party were treated in the same manner, Government front benches in the House of Commons would be almost empty!

[Joe]

I wait for the release of the equally disdainful Communist Party membership.

[alan]

don't agree with the release of people's details (on the basis that everyone has a right to privacy). but if BNP members are now so scared about reactions of others and losing business etc, shouldn't that tell them something about what type of organisation it is that they have chosen to associate themselves with?
NO IT SHOWS WHAT SORT OF PC WORLD WE LIVE IN.
THE BNP IS A REGISTARED POLITICAL PARTY. WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT........

[Lyndon]

IT IS A VERY SAD DAY FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH......

I FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE YOU CAN LOSE YOUR JOB IN 2008, OVER YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***OUR GREAT DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY, IS NO MORE****

[Matt Law]

The reaction of the BNP to the list leak is far more interesting than the list itself. Suggesting that some people have been added deliberately despite being non members suggests that the BNP themselves acknowledge that membership has negative connotations. Perhaps they should put more energy into addressing that image, after all this is a democratic country where everyone has a right to their own opinion. If their policies are not as bad as their perceived image then they need to learn to communicate more clearly.

[Annette]

I don't agree with the release of people's details (on the basis that everyone has a right to privacy). but if BNP members are now so scared about reactions of others and losing business etc, shouldn't that tell them something about what type of organisation it is that they have chosen to associate themselves with?

[Norman]

It's a superb counter example to the argument in favour of the government holding large amounts of personal data on us, namely, if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. Membership of a legitimate political party cannot of itself be wrong, no matter how many others find it distasteful.

This leak is another blow to the national ID database, for which we should all be grateful.

[Harry Bollingbroke]

The BNP would not exist if mainstream parties actually represented the views of people who are afraid at the transformation of parts of many cities into areas of Islamicised alienation. I don't have any time for the BNP - it is a rough and intellectually bankrupt mess, but I do understand why people fear al Muhajiroon, Hizb ut Tahrir, and sullen, bearded neighbours who share no values in common with the rest of us. Remember the Times Survey, carried out post 7/7, when a significant proportion of Muslim people expressed sympathy for the aims of the bombers, and large numbers denied it was carried out by Muslims. We probably all know excellent Muslim citizens, but to deny that many working class districts have been transformed around their long time inhabitants and to refuse to take their concerns seriously as the mainstream parties have done is what causes the BNP and organisations like it to grow. It is time that ALL citizens were required to share the general values of this society.

[Eleanor]

While everyone has the right to privacy, I can't seem to muster much sympathy for the BNP membership. If you have sufficient conviction to join a political party, you should have enough conviction and guts to assume membership of it publicly. If you're afraid of vilification, don't join the BNP. If you want to be a fascist, be one publicly.

[Keith Darby]

The British National Party is, like it or not, a legitimate registered political party. It is not a proscribed organisation nor a secret society. If we do, as is often claimed, live in a "free" and "democratic" society, then party affiliation should not matter. But, of course, we don't. We live in an increasingly intolerant liberal-left surveillance state. For shame.

[Geof Walker]

Easy to find on google, but the principle of easy publication of such membership lists is a serious one to be tackled whether the BNP, a more respectable party or the world tiddlywinks federation. I bet the IRA, basque nationalists etc don't keep spreadsheets of their members.

[machiavelli]

I do not understand the point that we should protect the identities of members of the racist, fascist BNP on the grounds that they may lose their job or that they may go out of business.
It is quite legitimate for a shopper to decide not to buy goods from a racist. It is quite legitimate for an employer to enforce a condition of employment and sack a BNP member, for instance in the case of the police officer who has been sacked.
There are other occupations and activities for which support for racist, fascist policies of the BNP are incompatible.

[ABH]

In the social service office we were asked to sign a petition against the BNP. Four of us who signed it voted for them at the election. It is dangerous to stick your head above the parapet in this free, democratic country.

[David]

Just go to Wikileaks.

[The 3rd Column]

No! Don't link. Enough of the chaos. BNP members are already quaking in their boots and that's good enough punishment.

[Thomas]

Of course you shouldn't have linked to it. I'm surprised you're even discussing it.

Thomas, a man of 'colour'

[Alex]

This is a totally spurious article.

If somebody joins a political party then they are endorsing the imposition of that parties policies on the whole electorate if the party gets into power. In a far greater way than simply voting for the party. The electorate has a right to know who so strongly supports parties and policies. It is an act of extreme cowardice and duplicity to hold a strong enough view on one hand to take positive action to support that view, but to hide behind anonymity because you are not strong enough to acknowledge your beliefs in public.

So if the computer shop owner, for example, believes being known as a member of the BNP will put him out of business perhaps he needs to revisit the views that led him to become a BNP member and decide wether they are really best for him and society.